My connection with Mario goes back to January, when I was part of the audience to his magic show, Mario the Maker Magician (@mariothemagician) for my niece's 6th birthday. As the lights dimmed in the theatre, I was expecting just a large scale version of magic shows that I'd seen at kids birthday parties, but looking back now, there were signs that this show would be different. The first was the location, the SOHO Playhouse, a downtown theatre proud of its rich place in history and as a launchpad of dreams for independent, off-broadway performers. The second was the credits and mentions in the program - Mario's been on Sesame Street, the Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon, and on tour opening for David Blaine who calls him "the best kids magician in the world." Within the first four minutes, Mario had the kids laughing and captivated, but what makes the show different is that by the last four minutes, he had all of us grownups clapping and choking back tears as he harmonized his magic with the heartbeat of his show, a mantra that goes like this: do what you love; use what you've got; never give up; and have fun. Wow. My wife, sister, brother-in-law and I all looked each other as if to say, did you just cry in a kids magic show, or was it just me?

Sometimes I feel like it's not a magic show. It's me ringing a bell, you know, in the audience, like, hey, we don't know tomorrow. I'm ringing this bell. Do what you love, man. If you can do the things that you're most excited about, maybe, just maybe, you're going to tap into a version of yourself you didn't even know existed. And maybe, just maybe, you're going to sing a song that's already been written before you were born. And when you get to that place, all of a sudden we're planting olive trees.

That's what we say in Italy. We plant olive trees for the next generation, not for ourselves.

Shawn: Thank you so much for doing this. This is kind of amazing for me. I got to attend your show and loved it. My family loved it.

Mario: Awesome!

S: That's why I reached out. I was like, let's just see. Maybe he'll come on to my show, my little show.

M: Yeah, dude. No, I'm excited to be part of what you're doing. This is great.

S: Obviously, I've had a chance to exchange emails with Katie and given her a sense of the show, but I also want to give you a chance before we launch into the interview itself, ask me anything that you want to know before we get into this.

M: Yeah, that's a good idea. So I'm curious to see, what is the end, the big purpose, the two cents of this? You know, why?

S: The why is because being a dad is really important. And it's a story that isn't talked about enough, I think, at a non-prescriptive level, to tell the story by capturing an individual regular everyday dad's story. And to say, let's understand, who you are - who you were as a son, who you are as a man, and of course, who you are as a dad. Because what I hope for is that as dads, we can appreciate how how amazing it is that we're doing this very important work. And like with any other important work that you can feel connected to other people doing that important work. Being a dad can feel so isolating sometimes. And like anybody else, when I'm in the trenches on something, and I'm doing something really important, what helps is knowing that there's other people doing this too, that I've got my teammates, so to speak, or my colleagues, people who are also doing this work. And so for me, personally, every dad I've talked to, it's like they're with me when I'm doing fatherhood, and I like to draw the strength from them and their stories, and it's just kind of become part of part of me and I hope, I trust other people as well as they've listened to dads' stories. And so that's why I'm doing this.

M: You're breaking it down so heavy right away! This is really good. I didn't expect like a home run so quick. That was crazy. Damn I felt every moment. Let's dive in. Let's rock this.

S: Introduce yourself. Tell me your name, how old you are, how long you've been married, your kids, ages and genders, what you do for a living, as well as any other hats that you wear or commitments that you keep that are worth mentioning.

M: All right. Thank you, Shawn. It's an honor to be on this. My name is Mario Marchese. My wife's name is Katie. And I have two kids, Gigi and Bear. And Gigi is 13 and Bear is 10. And I am a full time performer. We have a touring theater show. I'm a magician and also a maker. You know, I go by Mario the Maker Magician. So everything in my show is homemade robotics to inspire the next generation of kids and families. And yeah, we just finished off Broadway run where I got to cross paths with this amazing human, Shawn, you know, so it's an honor to be on this. And thanks so much for having me.

S: Thank you. I will just say your show is amazing. It's award winning. You just got back from Australia. I heard you've been on Sesame Street. You know David Blaine, you've written books. You've been on The Tonight Show. And most of all, my niece has your poster on her wall. So thank you so much for being on The Dad Bod, to help tell the story of what it means to be a dad today. So I want to thank you for that.

And so, as you mentioned, your show is where I was introduced to you and led me to email your wife to see if you would be interested in coming on the show. And so just going back to that moment where our paths crossed. Down at the Soho Playhouse. My first question for you is, do you actually see the tears in the eyes of the grownups in your audience?

M: Oh, man. You know, it's funny, right? Because I feel like everyone that's alive has a song inside of them, and sometimes that song is holding onto a paintbrush and painting that one picture that connects the world when they look at it. Other people, it's their voice and singing. For me, magic are the tools, so it's like a toolbox, like hammer, nails, screwdriver, drill, sandpaper. So you have this art form called magic. And I'm just taking these tools, these classics of magic that connect to the audience with laughter...and then my hope is that I get through fifty five minutes of making you laugh and believing in magic for a second, like throwing you off so that I can share my heart for the last four minutes, like what my song is, what my sentence is, like why I believe I'm alive. And so those four minutes is the why for me...I just said this recently in Australia - sometimes I feel it's not a magic show. It's me ringing a bell in the audience, like, hey, we're only - we don't know tomorrow. Like I'm ringing this bell, do what you love, man. Like if you can do the things that you're most excited about, maybe just maybe you're going to tap into a version of yourself you didn't even know existed. And maybe just maybe you're going to sing a song that's already been written before you were born. And when you get to that place, all of a sudden we're planting olive trees. That's what we say in Italy. Like we plant olive trees for the next generation, not for ourselves...just like you beautifully spoke earlier about the why you do this.

And it's a wild ride because it's live theater, and that's why people go to live theater because anything can happen. And then the hope is I'm kind of like this sailor in a ship, like navigating the storm of the chaos of the kids yelling in all direction and getting them to laugh, and can we sail it to this point where I could speak, you know? And it's really beautiful that you you saw my heart at the end of the show that you came to.

S: Oh, you were you were methodically breaking me down. Like it didn't take till the end. I was like, "Oh, boy, I'm in trouble." He's already hitting me. He goes, "do what you love. Use what you got. Never give up." We will shout it in my home now, so you affected this home and I'm sure many others. So I just have to say, for me, that was a magic show for kids and something else for us grown ups. And it was amazing. And now I wanted to ask you, why do you think all of us grownups had tears in our eyes after your show? What is it about those words, "Do what you love. Never give up. Have fun?"

M: Yeah. It's a heavy question, Shawn. I think there are core principles of truth in life that we can't deny. Like, it doesn't matter how much money you have and how famous you become. The second you're mean to the waiter at a restaurant, all your grace is gone, and you become shunned, because there's truths, these truths in life, like that we all strive to be appreciated. We all strive to be respected. And we all strive to be ourselves. And that's something that we try to teach in early preschool into elementary school. These teachers, man, they're the backbones of our country, our world. They're these unsung heroes that put in their own money to get the right craft materials to celebrate the seasons as they change.

And there's something about that when we get older that we abandon. It's almost like a natural coincidence, my greatest shows are always the ones where I'm reminding myself that it's about the kids, you know, in the sense, and I hate that this sounds so cheesy, but I think the more that we concentrate on these basic principles of childhood...because think about it, who you are as a child is who you are when you're an adult. And the mountains that you face as a child are the things that you overcome as an adult, too, so hopefully in my show people get reminded of the things that they overcame as a kid.

And it goes back to the why again, too, because the things that we were missing in our childhood, we fill those gaps as fathers when we have our own kids. And it's a beautiful thing, because I believe that we want to do good. The past couple shows, I've been ending my show [saying] that the stars don't disappear in the daylight, we just can't see them. Just like the goodness that's happening all over the world right now. There's so many easy clicks on our phone for negativity, just anything that's slightly negative. There's something wired in our brain to connect to it quick and then we wonder why we feel empty, and so I think that a big part of my focus in the show is just a reminder of the importance of being good.

S: I'll tell you that for me, what brought tears to my eyes - I don't think I technically cried, just for the record - is that those words are reminding me of something that on a day to day basis, I forget. That's what it was. And it was like, Oh, man, you're right. And so many of us are, just by virtue of life and lots of lots of things that nobody can wrap their arms around, we're not doing the things that we love a lot of the time. And to see you preaching this message, and living it is - maybe for some, they say, "Oh, man, why couldn't I have done that?" But for me, I was like, "Hey, he at least is doing it. And he's representing us. He's at least doing it. And our kids get to see that." And even if that may not be in the cards for most of us in the audience, it is absolutely in the cards for us as dads to pass that down. And so you spoke to this thing inside me. And it made me feel really good about the moments when I do access that. So this is me trying to do that.

M: Just thinking about you, Shawn, with this podcast, like the fact that you took these extra steps to create this platform to connect fathers just shows like, damn, I want to shake you like of how much of a good dad you are, you know, like, because life is hard, right? And like, we have to be tough. That's part of life, that we get numbed because of all the things that we're freaking blocking, and then we're still trying to be good.

I'll tell you something about one of my greatest father's stories in my heritage, my life. My father is Italian. He came from Italy in the 70s with my mom, they got married in Italy and my dad came when he was 21. He was a stonemason, super hard worker. Watching him work growing up really inspired me to never sit down, to always be making stuff. But what's really interesting was when I became a father, you know, when my daughter was born, it's scary, because you see everyone, there's so many parents out there, but when it happens to you, it feels so powerful and scary and all these feelings...but something happened that my mom, like after a couple months that Gigi was born, my mom confided in me on a phone call. And she said that my dad had been having a hard time [that] year, you know, but when Gigi was born - damn, this is gonna make me break and I gotta take a breath. She said, when Gigi was born, your dad said that he has a new reason to be alive. And I was like - damn, like my father never talks like that ever. He's such a hard Italian New Yorker, but that shifted our relationship, our connection, that shifted everything because all of a sudden, my perspective of him is in such a new light, because of this new life that's in our lives, right?

It's a beautiful thing, becoming a father, there's so many moments like that amongst all the storms, right? That give you the energy to get through it, because at the end of the day, it's like I say in my show, life is not a race, it's a relay. We're remembered not by our achievements, but we're remembered by who we helped while we are alive. And that sounds kind of stupid in American culture, or it sounds kind of on the surface, dumb, but if you really think about it, it's true, because our greatest moments when we're sitting down all alone, that we're going to feel are the moments that we let go of ourself to do something for someone else. I know, it's scientifically proven because I've been reading this book called the Book of Joy by the Dalai Lama and [Desmond] Tutu. And they speak about the scientific studies of even by observing kindness from afar, it affects your immune system in a positive way. It's been proven just observing kindness. That's insane. Because sometimes I feel like in our society in America, because I travel a lot, we're in Australia, we're in Europe all the time, but especially in American culture, kindness seems to always be viewed as weakness in so many ways and it's not like that in other countries.

My father's a stonemason immigrant from Italy. The idea of even doing art for a living is insane. Can you imagine? So every job that I had growing up, I just tried to emulate my father, just work as hard as I possibly can and never let anyone see me sitting down, like always just hustle, you know? And that's a New York attitude thing, too.

I'm so lucky that my father trailblazed this path that I was born here to have the freedom to be a magician and a maker and an artist for a living.

My father came as 21, like I said, straight from Italy. And so like when I was born, like at 21, like 21, like my dad's 21, my mom's 19, you know, like, so you know, they're kids, man, now that I'm older, like, and I see it, like, they're kids. [And for my father it's like] I'm the first born, I'm in a new country, I'm an immigrant. I'm just trying to show the world, especially in New York, that I made it. And they went from an apartment - my dad worked in construction for someone else for 10 years, until like, he's so good at stonemasonry that people are handing him like their contact info, like can you come on your weekends when you're not working, and all of a sudden, he starts his own business, quits this company - and watching my father buying the first house. On top of all that, being a father.

It was a beautiful and fascinating childhood. I grew up in a very vast, Italian American culture in New York and Westchester during the 80s and 90s. It was a beautiful thing. But then again, my father's a stonemason immigrant from Italy. The idea of even doing art for a living is insane. Can you imagine? So every job that I had growing up, I just tried to emulate my father, just work as hard as I possibly can and never let anyone see me sitting down, like always just hustle, you know? And that's a New York attitude thing, too. I'm so lucky that my father trailblazed this path that I was born here to have the freedom to be a magician and a maker and an artist for a living. Can you imagine that? Like, there's nowhere else in the world I could do that. It's very hard. I was very lucky to be in New York.

I'm sitting in my house right now in Nyack, New York. We bought this house for dirt cheap at the time, because it was covered in carpet, there was three layers of wallpaper in every room, even the bathroom had carpet. And it smelled when the realtor opened the door, she would say to us, just don't judge the smell. Look at the potential. The lady owns this is 94. The reason why I bring that up is we all bought the house and my father took off of work for five weeks. And every morning at 730 he's here with coffee. And we - damn, you're gonna make me get emotional - we peeled all the wallpaper off together. We ripped the carpet out. My grandfather was in his 70s. Now he's in his 90s. He did all the plumbing. My grandfather did all the plumbing of the sink, the laundry. My uncle's an electrician, he did all the wiring. And my dad and I put all the drywall in the ceiling in every room, re plastered every single room in this house together. That was my turning point, you know?

S: Wow!

M: Yeah, it was heavy. It was heavy. And the pictures are beautiful. There's pictures of my dad with plaster on his cheeks, holding my daughter like eight months on the porch on the floor, you know, eating lunch, you know, like in between construction, you know? And that's where my faith comes in. I just believe in this thing bigger than me, that if you let go of the battle, and allow whatever is bigger in your life, invisible, whatever it is that you call faith or whatever, I don't care. But you just allow it, trust it, it's going to come back around in a positive way. And that was one of those victories that was like, wow, I never knew that everything would turn in this direction. You know?

S: Growing up, did you know you wanted to - when did you know you wanted to be, I'll just say, an artist? When did you know that? And was there some tension with your dad around that?

M: No, I would never say tension. I think [for] my dad and mom, just kind of like this unknown territory, you know, it's just unknown. Like, they grew up in southern Italy, it's not the same lifestyle, there's not a lot of opportunity. Like my father, he didn't just leave his family because it was like fun to come to New York. He left because there's no jobs. Everyone goes to Switzerland to work at that time, or they went out to a different country and come back to southern Italy, you know? So it was just a foreign idea.

We don't have a lot of members in our family that are in the arts that I can emulate. But my name, Mario Marchese, my grandfather that I'm named after, Nonno Mario, that's my father's father, okay. He sewed for a living, he made suits, one of the only people in that region of Italy. And I talk about this in my magic show, too. Yes, they were poor. And yes, they didn't have a lot. But my grandfather's kids, my parents, they were the best dressed kids in the whole region of Italy, because my grandfather was a maker, and I just found out recently because I talked to my 94 year old grandfather (on mother's side) asking him questions about my Nonno that I'm named after. He said that my grandfather used to set up shop on the stoop...and he would set up his sewing machine. And he would use a crayon. And he would make his own trace his own patterns, sewing patterns for individuals and make these suits. So maybe they weren't famous, my grandpa, but damn, man, that's like me, right?

And now I just saw my daughter, two days ago, sew her own shirt, this shirt, my 13 year old with a bow, because he was copying it off of some fashion blog but she made her own and it really hit me and even hit my dad, he shared it to everyone in Italy, so there is that art in that sense, but yeah, it was definitely like a foreign territory. I didn't see my first magic show till I was 22, so it was definitely one of those things that when it hit me, it took a couple weeks. And then all of a sudden, I realized I'm in this rhythm that I just want to read every single book out there on this one subject.

S: So even though it wasn't in your family's background - magic, the arts, the performing arts - nevertheless, as you're talking about your family and your family's history, you do feel like a convergence of all these different things: your grandfather, him as a maker; your dad and his tireless work ethic.

M: Yeah. And he's funny as hell. My dad is the funniest guy you'll ever meet. Like my father is whole, like when he's comfortable, he's like crazy...and I grew up with that going to Italy during the holidays and just watching him. Like everything's a joke.

S: So to see at face value, you're breaking into new territory as far as your family is concerned. But it feels like a culmination as you talk about it. Like there is this progression, like you said, the relay race. And these threads, - pun intended, I guess - you know, these threads maybe first spun by your grandfather, passing on to your dad coming over here to America, to New York specifically, and that you are the next link in that relay. It makes sense.

M: I love that. It's so true.

I'll tell you one last thing about my grandfather, Nonno Mario. There's photos of him, right? But there's no video. There's only one video. And it's only like about five seconds long. It's on eight millimeter. And that's it, okay, of him. And when we go to Italy, and all our family's together, sometimes they set up the projector, like the thing onto the wall of the house. And it's so crazy when the video gets to my grandfather watching my dad and his sisters and brother, just looking at them because we live in such a social media world where we're like taking pictures of every meal we eat, you know, and here they are just sitting, waiting in anticipation for that moment when the camera goes to my grandfather, and he's just standing in front of that stoop, like on the cement door, the little door, and he's just standing looking out.

And then it's just gone, you know, and then everyone goes back to just whispering and talking. But it's a cool thing. And I've been trying to honor my grandfather in my show towards the end, because I've been lately just really - it's been really hitting me, like you said, making these face value connections of like, hey, there's a why here, how do I bring it to my personal story, my journey of my father, my grandfather, you know?

S: Yeah. And I am noticing the way that when you talk about your grandfather, you say his his name in Italian. And it feels like almost like every every sentence or every paragraph about him must begin with his name being said and said properly. What do you feel when you say that? I feel like there's an electric point in the way that you're talking.

M: Yeah. I think it's true. I guess it's like, you know, it's out of respect, too, because he passed away really young. He was like 50, something really young and so my dad, as far as I know, left as a teenager to get money and bring it back. And so it was very heavy on my grandma. Still to this day, when we go see my grandma, Nonno's name comes out of her mouth within minutes, like always. It's just a thing of respect...you know, there's something sacred about his life and what he did to our little circle of family, and also I think passing away at an early age...you kind of dive even deeper in that respect. He deserves it, right? He deserves it.

S: When you look at your dad and his siblings looking at that five seconds of eight millimeter video, what do you see on your dad's face?

M: I think I see a reflection of him as a child, you know? I definitely do. And I see it in their siblings, too. And I remember it really hit me hard when that happened. Because that's at the end of the day, we're all...even my grandfather says that, too. He's 94. He's got so much pain, like his back. He still drives. He still drives in New York. So he drives to the chiropractor. He drives back. We were making wine at my house. We do wine making and he's like, "I'm 94." But like inside him he's always, "I'm a 20." You know, "I'm 25." You know?

And I feel that's part of my goal in my show is like, how do I unlock that? Because there's grown ups, there has to be grown ups at the show with family audience. So it's like, how do I unlock that? In London, when we did our run in London, the director there, she pointed it out. She said the moment that the parents see their kids laughing is the moment their shoulders go down, and they start laughing.

She is the grace side of my show, you know? She is my last four minutes. She is it. Growing up with my mom whispering me Bible stories, like every night, you know, patient. Like after she washed the dishes, she would put a pot of flowers in the center of the table. And she said, let's draw it together, you know? Let's draw.

S: I did peruse your site to get a little bit more of your backstory. And one thing that you said that I wanted to ask you about is you referred to yourself as that kid who couldn't sit still. The kid who was in summer school every year from fifth to twelfth grade.

M: It's true. Except for one year. Yeah, it's true.

S: And so I guess I wanted to, you know, have you kind of connect me with that. That kid Mario. What advice does kid Mario have for us dads in terms of perspective on how to be better dads?

M: Yeah. Be patient, right? Be patient with me, you know? I think patience is so important, and I think that what hits home as a father too, is there's so much on our minds, right? Between work and finances and like maintaining the house. Like, man, like just yesterday, I picked up the phone, my mom. And as I'm talking, I feel water on my shoulder. I look up. The whole kitchen ceiling, it's just pouring water down. What is happening? You know, there's just so much going, and realizing...just have patience. Kids act out, not because they're jerks. They act out because there's something missing. It's like a form of communication. It's a language, you know? And the more that we step aside from the surface level of whatever's happening, the more we diffuse so much - and this is something I'm saying to myself more than anything. It's a daily thing that I have to be - it's not like riding a bike where you ride and you understand. It's just about that flexibility. And so like, what are you doing? What am I doing in the morning to make sure that we have that flexibility?

And I always think about my friend, Daniel, he's a poet, he always says that when you're a kid, and you have a normal natural growing environment, you're naturally happy, for the most part, you know, you're just happy, you wake up. But when you're an adult, you have to point to where happiness is and focus on it every morning, and then start your day, you know, and I feel that because there's just so much, it's like...

And our kids deserve the best, right? And before every show, I have this paragraph that I read, before I go out on stage, just reminding me of why am I doing this? So I don't waste the audience's time. And it's all in that kind of direction.

S: Now, for you, then, as a kid growing up, was there anybody who you want to kind of give credit and thanks to for being patient with you?

M: Yeah, of course, there's so many. Obviously, my parents, and my mom, especially. She is the grace side of my show, you know? She is my last four minutes. She is it. Growing up with my mom whispering me Bible stories, like every night, you know, patient. Like after she washed the dishes, she would put a pot of flowers in the center of the table. And she said, let's draw it together, you know? Let's draw. She was always so concerned, just to make sure that I had something, like I'm doing something, you know? And so that early childhood faith, and just something bigger. It's like my strength that I'm trying to pass to my children. I remember my kids say, well, this family believes this and this family believes in that. And I say, of course, and that's the path they need, so that they can get to it. But in our family, this is what we believe, and that's okay. But we need to have something that's bigger than us, that's invisible, that we need to tap into, to help us through those times, and for me, that's how we teach our kids a meditation, whatever it is. And that's been something that was passed from my mom and my grandfather on my mom's side, my Nonno that did all the plumbing. He's a big man of his faith which shaped his kids, which is my mom, her sisters, and which helped shaped me now.

And that's a relay, too, you know? And that's a beautiful thing of life, right? Is all these tribes around the world, right? These are our heritage, where we come from, and these stories that we pass on, a faith where these mountains were moved or these battles were won. Those are sacred to me. Those are sacred to all of us. And I think it's part of our responsibility of where you come from, to honor the names of those people, because we can't depend on others, like, it's our people, right? We have to honor those names. And that's what we do in our family. That's what we try to uphold, right? Just like, you're talking about Nonno Mario. It's these kinds of things.

S: So you mentioned meditation, you have a family meditation, is that something that you'd be willing to share? And it's totally okay, if not, it's so personal. But even just the fact that you have a meditation, I feel is really awesome.

M: Yeah, yeah. I didn't mention it earlier. But you know, we travel almost seven months out of the year, we're in different countries in different places. So we road school our kids, we home school/road school. So it's so important that we have this backbone of all these safety nets built in to help us. And we have these evening routines of just thankfulness. We tap into different scriptures and different words that inspire us. It could be from so many sources. I think it's about my gut, too. It's like, what did I feel throughout the day? Even if it's a stupid video, just to get the ball rolling, but we're reflecting, right? Like a moment of reflection. No, we're not going to bed yet. We're gonna all sit in the bed with the kids and just have this moment of reflection. Damn, that's so healthy. Just thinking about that. Like, even like you were talking about earlier with Mario, what is something that you would say? My mom did that growing up, like that reflective time every evening that kind of helps us go to sleep. It's kind of that honey tea or whatever it is that just sits in your stomach in such a positive way, just to get ready for the next day, that is awesome.

S: And I, I feel like what resonates with me so much about your message is that it runs so counter to what we are in the adult world always thinking about, like, we're so used to thinking about how to get something done, how to make sure I'm getting my fair piece, how to make sure that my kids even when it comes to kids, we, the way we parent is very much informed by a worldly perspective and worldly things that are important from a worldly place. And I just think that what your show and everything that you've been talking about, as an art form, doing that job of art in talking back to our context right now. Do you feel there's a particular aspect of your show and what you do in your message that you're like, "This is especially important to for me to be saying right now?"

M: Yeah, you know, the biggest struggle I have in my show is my last four minutes when I talk from my heart, because everything that's in my show, it's a reflection of the things that I'm most excited about, because the idea of putting Jean-Michel Basquiat, Alexander Calder, and Andy Warhol in a magic show makes no sense. It makes no sense. They're not magicians. Why am I putting them in the show? I didn't learn about them until I was 17, and Miss Ranello, my humanities teacher, changed my life. She taught me that Jean-Michel Basquiat went from poverty to expressing something that the world all connected with. He changed the fashion world and the art world. One of my favorite quotes of his is, "I cross words out so you can see them more." I love that.

Because think about like, we're trying to make a generation of problem solvers, right? Problem solving is so important in success in so many companies. But if you think about problem solving, from a distance, problem solving is a form of rebellion. It's a form of rebellion [because] you have to think outside of the laws and the rules that you're trained to think of. And that's what creates innovation, is mixing ideas that have never been mixed before. And so thinking of people like Jean-Michel, like early on in the late 70s, early 80s, like everyone's spray painting bubble letters and stuff. And he's spray painting like mantras on the street. And people are like, what is this? What is this deep meaning here? Like he's taking this medium and then communicating to more people. And I love that.

And so the idea of all these different artists, like Alexander Calder being this grown up childlike figure that created these mobiles. And when you stand in front of them, you feel like a kid because they're ginormous. So the idea that there's people that created a new language, their own language, just like Jean Miro, like, he's painted, he created his own language on that canvas. So at that time, that was revolutionary. No one was painting what Jean Miro was painting. So there was a gut feeling that caused you to stop and look at the painting again, "Wait a second, I've never seen this kind of thing before." And all of a sudden, you're feeling things.

Think about Mark Rothko. There's people that weep when they stand in front of a Mark Rothko painting. Why? I don't know. There's something that he opens, some type of window, right? So that idea of, can I talk about these things to four to 11 year old kids in a way that maybe when they walk through the MoMA by accident, because they have to, and they're like, dada, that's Andy Warhol, that's the tomato can, you know? It's something of beauty to me, because my happiest moments sometimes is like me just walking into the MoMA and just sitting at a bench and staring at a Jean Miro or staring at the tomato cans, or there's something that connects me with Monet and Manet. I don't know what it is, but it's like a performance piece on something that I can stare at that's still, and it's important to me. The reason I bring that up is because it's a magic show, like I said before, but the magic is the tools in my toolbox to communicate the things that inspired me.

And it goes back to this one thing that I always say to kids: whatever you're most excited about, try to learn as much as you can. Because when you're excited about something, I don't care what you're talking about. Eventually, everyone's gonna listen to you, you know, because you can't deny excitement. You can't deny authenticity, you can't deny being genuine, you know? Even online on Instagram, there'll be someone who's like, just jamming to music and looking kind of silly. And then there'll be comments of people, haters saying, look at that guy, he looks like an idiot. And then there'll be a swarm of thunder of people saying, leave that guy alone. He's enjoying life, you know? So it's kind of like that. That's a truth that we can't deny, you know?

...when I wanted to pursue being an artist for a living. Everybody at every side, tapping me on the shoulder, "When are you going to grow up?" That's the fire of my show. That's the fire. I'm literally building a 20 foot spring snake that's gonna shoot out on stage. That's where the fire comes. Like build something so stupid and crazy.

S: That, again, that's what spoke to me in your show. This being attuned to what excites you, what you love. And just to go to that a little bit, where you said, "do what you love." And, for me personally, my personal journey, which obviously is still a work in progress, is just - to understand what is my answer to that question is a tough one. And I think that has a lot to do with my childhood and how I came up. And I don't know, I don't want to make this about me.

M: But I'm curious, because I was gonna ask you where did you grow up? And like, just a little bit, just a little bit.

S: Totally. Yeah. And it might not make the cut, it might not make the cut of the show. But absolutely would love to share, just because I'm just enjoying this conversation so much. You know, growing up in Arizona, my parents are immigrants, I'm American born. And the pivotal thing for me was when my parents got divorced when I was eight years old. This very, you know, traumatic...so I'm like, you know, still dealing with that stuff. This is definitely not making the show.

M: No, but it's a powerful window, to understand your history a little bit, because eight years old is - damn, that's just...it's so young, and it's not like you're a toddler. Like you're really understanding things...

S: So I understood enough where it was this very kind of perfectly terrible time for it to happen to a person in a way, but I'm also grateful for it, too. You know, that's the way life is mysterious, right? Some of the things that are the biggest pains, I can't imagine myself without them.

So at that age, I knew enough - I was innocent enough to feel like my world, the whole thing was crushed. You know, your parents are perfect. Guess what? That's not true now. I'm shattering that. Even though I had all this evidence to know they're fighting, they're just at each other's throats and just terrible. But to me, they were still perfect. And then when that, you know, when my mom sat me down on the bed and said, Hey, we're getting, you know, we're splitting up. So then I just go into kind of overdrive. Well, first, I'm upset. But then I'm like, all right, well, I need to take care. I need to, you know, I need to grow up. I need to take care. And of course, I was still eight, nine years old. But I was definitely in my mind and in reality to taking on just a lot more. I had to. And so from there, what went out the window was "Oh, what do I want to do?" I was like, "What do I have to do? What has to be done? How do we avoid the next big fight? How do we get in front of this?" So you're mediating between your parents, you're this kind of conduit, you know, passing messages. So I think that for a long, long time, and I still am like, my question about "What is it that I'm excited about and I love?" is something that's so buried. I don't think about it. For years since I was a kid, I'm just like, don't think about it. That's kind of my show. I'm still working it out. You know, I was working it out last week.

M: What a more amazing father you are, because of the wars and the battles, and the appreciation that you have [for] small details of parenting that so many fathers miss. That's the beauty, right? Like you're just saying that's one of the mysteries of life, why it's a blessing, because things that I lacked as a teenager, when I wanted to pursue being an artist for a living. Everybody at every side, tapping me on the shoulder, "When are you going to grow up?" That's the fire of my show. That's the fire. I'm literally building a 20 foot spring snake that's gonna shoot out on stage. That's where the fire comes. Like build something so stupid and crazy.

And because if there is no fight, if there is no war, there is no song, right? And there is no song, there's no dance, you know? We have to have that. And that's the hard part of the arts. That's the hard part. We all want the beautiful song, but we don't want to walk through the fire.

And I told the woman - she was so sweet to me, I used to do the daycare every year - that I'm gonna quit my job, and I'm gonna do magic full time. And she walked me out after the show, grabbed me and Katie, she grabbed our hands, and she prayed for us, you know?

S: As far as that fire you talk about - that's so interesting because your message is so positive, right? But there is this fire that's part of it. There's the chip on your shoulder. I'm sure there's the voices that like Michael Jordan, you probably saved those words of people who told you you couldn't in the past. They may even be people that you love dearly. But it's not them per se, I imagine, right? Not them per se. It's those those doubts and the words. Give me some insight into that interplay.

M: Yeah, I mean, I still face it in my head. I've read some quote recently about that. I don't know where it is, but it was just about how you're a million dollars to one person, and then to another person, they look at you like you're poor. It's just the way it is. You're super famous in certain areas, and then other areas, you're nothing. And I read it, and it was so refreshing to my body and mind, that to release this expectation that I have to be something where everyone sees who I am. That's a lie, you know? Being yourself actually does the opposite. Sometimes you're separating yourself from all the labels that everyone has. So when I decided to pursue magic full time, I'm actually isolating myself. And, look, it was like a couple years where even my people that I trust, were kind of like, rolling their eyes, like, what are you doing?

It's funny, because we did so many private parties in New York City for so many years, that was kind of our foundation. I didn't want to do magic for kids and families. I wanted to be like David Blaine, I wanted to be like Copperfield. The idea of doing magic for children, families was so silly. Especially at magic conventions, magicians look at family entertainment as a stepping stone in your career, not as something that makes your career. The big gold nugget in magic is the magicians that do the corporate gigs, doing the Google gig and the Apple gig, and they can brag about it, but doing stuff for children and family just seems, you know. So I had all that coming against me. [You didn't have] the David Blaine of kids magic or friend that I could look at, like, this is, you know. So on top of all that, I'll be honest, I ran away from magic for kids. You know, what my fire was in my 20s was I want to do what I love. Okay, I watched my father growing up, I watched him, like how exhausted he was. I watched him trailblaze this relay, talk about a relay.

And so what was beautiful is I met Katie, my wife, you know, when we were dating, and I didn't tell her I was a magician for three months. I'm like 24. And I'm just doing little kids, you know, like birthday party stuff. And so, one day, three months in, she was living in Manhattan, too. She was living in downtown. And one day, she had to drive me to a birthday party. And I had my magic stuff. And she's like, "What? So you're a magician?" I was like, yeah, you know, whatever. So she went to the party was like in a school gym. And she came out. And she's like, "You're an effing rock star when you're with kids! Do you understand?" And I was like, "What? No, I don't understand. We don't do kids. Like kids magic is for like, low..."

So there's so many levels, like my family, friends, like "This is not a living." The magicians at the magic club, like "This is not a living." But what I was trying to get out was the fire in me. But watching my father was - I want to just do what I love for a living. You know, that's all I want. Like watching my father, that was what I realized, was no matter what I do, I want it to be something that I love. You know?

And so that moment, when Katie said that, and I'm pushing that away, there was this crux that we're entering because Katie has an administrative job for a furnishing company. I'm a teacher's aide at an elementary school. And we're barely paying, you know, this apartment. And she's like, I'm gonna quit my job and we're gonna do shows, like kid shows, because I was working for an agency and they were taking 60% from every birthday party I did. So it was like, man, insane.

But what I'm trying to say was that fire of doing what I love. And the love for magic, the fire doing what I love was bigger. And I reached a point where I just said, You know what, if this is, you know what it is, I will do the kids stuff. And I'll quit because I had so many birthday parties with this agency. I quit it with Katie, quit my teacher's aid job. And it was a September, we quit our jobs. And Katie was emailing everything she can like schools, everything and, and I surrendered with kind of like a chip on my shoulder, kind of angry about this whole children's thing because of all the labels that I was told, you know, and having no one to look up to, like, there's not a standard here.

And long story short, for two years, I fought this whole kids magic thing. As we started paying our rent, and we started having less roommates, too. But after two years of fighting it, like I just let it go. And I realized like, like, what I'm fighting is the very reason I'm alive. Yeah, it's my song is in there. And once I realized that, it's like Indiana Jones with the sand. It like you pour the sand in and you see the shape and you can walk across the cliff. Now it's like, there's something here. Like, I don't see it yet, exactly.

It's funny because two months before, I did a daycare in Long Island in this poor neighborhood. And it was this daycare. And I told the woman - she was so sweet to me, I used to do the daycare every year - that I'm gonna quit my job, and I'm gonna do magic full time. And she walked me out after the show, grabbed me and Katie, she grabbed our hands, and she prayed for us, you know? Yeah, it was heavy. And it was like, and I had a dream. I'm gonna be heavy right now. I had a dream about all this afterwards, but just to give me the strength to let go. And so there's moments there that that fed me to get me through the storm, because there was a big storm of two years of letting it go. And then on top of that, once you realize this stuff, big whoop, welcome to life, you got your 20s and 30s. But you know, these were the pivotal moments that slowly directed to where you saw me now.

And Katie was so mad, you know, she's like, "You're gonna take what this guy's given you and all this hard work? I give my job, like, I'm believing in you, you know?" And she always turns my head in the right direction. And I didn't take it and we quit.

S: That's amazing. A couple things I observed there, as you're talking about it was the relay metaphor. You see your dad working so hard. And it's interesting to me that your take is, "I need to do what I love." And I love that because I think oftentimes we think honoring the past is imitating the past. But it's not that in your case. You said, "Let me take the baton from you and do what this next leg of the relay is supposed to do." It's not supposed to be an imitation of the previous one, it's supposed to be something that picks up from the previous one. And in that way honors the previous one. Maybe that's about doing something that looks very similar. Or maybe it's about doing something that looks very, very different.

And then the second thing is thank God for Katie.

M: Yeah. She's...after two years with this agency, they saw that we were quitting our jobs. And so they, in a panic, sent an email to Katie and I to pay me a yearly salary, you know, and this number, like, I'm going to pay you this amount. And for me at that age, I was like, "Oh my gosh, Katie, I'm going to do it." And the stipulation was that I can book you as many shows as I want, and you're just going to have to go, but I'm going to give you this yearly salary. And Katie was so mad, you know, she's like, "You're gonna take what this guy's given you and all this hard work? I give my job, like, I'm believing in you, you know?" And she always turns my head in the right direction. And I didn't take it and we quit.

And there's so many moments like that over these 16, 17 years where I was too afraid to raise our rates, you know, like when we're doing the private parties, and as we got to like higher level private parties, and Katie always pushing the button every year and a half, raising the rates and not telling me because I'd get more nervous knowing that we're charging X amount, right. And even to the point with pushing into school assemblies. I think that's one of Katie's joys and strengths is this whole underdog thing of like, we're representing children and family entertainment. And we're trying to break into the theater world. And there's so many obstacles of people not wanting - even the New York Times, when we did our first off Broadway run - you know, it's tough to get a review. We're like, it's off Broadway, but it's still kids and family. It's not like they're gonna give you this big window.

But man, Katie just communicating and just connections and stuff to get people to just come in and see the show. Yeah, Katie's the backbone for sure.

S: Like talk about fire.

M: Everything that's good on the website. She does everything, the social media, the photography, the Instagram. She's the brains, you know, and so we're a good team.

S: I love that. Along the way, as you're talking about these different points, like the fire that she brings the fire that is burning and saying "No, you have to believe in yourself," and also shining a light on where you need to go. I just thought that's awesome.

Let kids chase their excitement. You don't know where it's gonna lead you, man. You just don't know

M: As a father, you know, it's how do we instill that in our kids, right? That's the challenge. My son, Bear, he's 10. We were in California last year, and we went to a hobby shop. And they have these cars called the Kyosho Mini Zs. They're like little RC cars. But they're super intricate. You can hack every little piece - the shocks - and they're expensive. They're not cheap, you know. And I don't know what happened that day in my spirit, my gut. I'm like, you know what, man, let's just get two of them. You know, and then Bear's like "What?" And in the hotel bathroom, we're drifting on the floor. And I remember at one point, someone's knocking like, you know, shut these cars up, they can hear from upstairs.

But what happened was from that moment, I don't know what happened to Bear, something in his brain with RC cars. And from that moment, because I took this financial risk and bought this extra tool that has more opportunity for creativity. Bear says, "I want another one that there's something called crawlers that there are RC cars that climb rocks, and you can hack the shocks and you can make you could stand the tie rod ends." And he's watching some like YouTube videos about RC cars. So we get him this little toy crawler and it was expensive. But man, he took off with it. So every book he reads, he gets a little bit of money to put upgrades. And now he's got a toolbox. And you know, screwdrivers and tools and wrenches. And now he has his own 3d printer. He's 3D printing, chassis now for his car. And he's doing it all on his own. Like he opens the computer up.

And this is something that I read recently, too, is when we take a risk on somebody, like financially to and we buy them something that's like, bigger, like that you wouldn't usually give. It's the same thing that happened to Bill Gates. I was reading about his story. In high school, they had this amazing computer teacher that advocated to get some of the one of the first computers and it costs like 30 grand or something. And they got the funding and he bought the computer. And he let Bill Gates and his friend play on the computer off hours, just play on it. And they're playing. And next thing you know, they wrote a little application. And then the next thing you know, the teacher asked him to write an application for scheduling for after school programs. And it's all play. And next thing you know, the guy makes his own computer and changes the world. And that's why this year, I'm like, I bought Bear the 3d printer. I don't care if he reads a bunch. I'm buying these upgrades. And it's a beautiful thing.

Oh, and you want to hear a crazy story. So this sounds like toys, right? RC cars. It's toys, Mario. It's not education. In my show, I have a drone. I do a trick with a toy drone. And it's about Nikola Tesla and him inventing the first remote control boat, you know. So in Australia, I 3D printed a frame, and with tissue paper, I made a paper boat that floats. It's beautiful. And it's a drone that's inside that's very strong. And we had to promote the Sydney Opera House because we're performing in October. So we went out in Australia, we took a flight to Sydney Opera House. And we're doing all this PR video stuff. And guess who the pilot of the boat is? It's my 10 year old son, Bear. And there's eight directors there. Like, "So are you sure he can, you know, operate this thing without damaging the Sydney Opera House?" And I'm like, he's the best drone operator you'll ever meet. And there he is with the controllers as I'm chasing this paper boat around the Sydney Opera House. It was one of the most beautiful dad moments to me.

And it's just a great example of let kids chase their excitement. You don't know where it's gonna lead you, man. You just don't know. I didn't know that months later, he'd be there at the Sydney Opera House controlling this drone in front of all these directors and the creativity with 3D printing and making and hacking and, you know, so it's a very - I'm learning as a father, right? I'm sure you are too.

S: Yeah, my kids blow me away. My kids blow me away with the things that they do. I'm just like, wow, I'm just happy to be making the sandwiches while you do that. That's so cool. I'm like, just keep going. Keep going. Basically in whatever you're doing. I'm illiterate. I'm the equivalent of illiterate, but I'm just so happy to see you doing the equivalent of reading. This is so cool. And so yeah, that just goes back to what you're talking about. The relay of life and passing that baton. You passing it on to your kids and all of us dads passing it on to our kids. And Mario, I just want to thank you in closing for doing this relay with me. Actually passing a baton to me. I feel just lifted and encouraged by this just as I was with your show. So I just thank you. Thank you so much for being on The Dad Bod and helping to tell the story of what it means to be a dad today.

M: Shawn, it was an absolute honor to meet someone like you that's holding this baton right now. And I can't wait to cross paths again.

S: We will. We will. Absolutely. Thank you, Mario.