Coach Rod, Black Dad Unfiltered

I left my career to be a stay-at-home dad. My career started in banking. I said, okay, we're going to walk away. I have some skills. We'll figure this out. But I'm going to be here with my kids.

And from there, it just became coaching teams and always the balance, which swayed more towards my kids and me choosing career paths and options that allowed me to be fully present.

Shout out to Carlton, Daddy's Boy Dad, and Rod's brother, Kervens, for introducing me to Coach Rod because of the passion that we share for lifting up fatherhood. In Rod's case, he is the co-creator of Black Dad Unfiltered, a media company dedicated to showcasing the profound influence of Black fatherhood. Although Black Dad Unfiltered is only a year old, they’ve created an incredible amount of positivity on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Pinterest - basically every platform in addition to their podcast - driven by their mission to inform, inspire, and create positive change by elevating the contributions of Black fathers.

At the surface, Black Dad Unfiltered and The Dad Bod look as different as Coach Rod and me. But when we met on Zoom for an intro call, we immediately recognized the intertwined roots of our two creative endeavors. I was grateful for the opportunity to create this episode as a Black Dad Unfiltered - Dad Bod collaboration. I would describe the approach we took to the conversation as The Dad Bod melody set to the rhythm and rhyme of Black Dad Unfiltered. Is that what they call a remix? A mashup? Whatever it is, I hope it's the first of many collaborations, because what you're about to hear is a fun, meaningful conversation on important topics and stories that touch upon who we are as sons, men, and dads.

Shawn: Okay, Coach Rod, thank you for sitting down with me. We'll just get this started. Start off with my little intro question, The Dad Bod intro, which is: introduce yourself. Tell me your name, your age, how long you've been married, your kids' genders and ages, what you do for a living, as well as any other hats that you wear or commitments that you keep that are worth mentioning.

Coach Rod: Sure. Again, thank you for having me on The Dad Bod. Again, go by Coach Rod. Won't tell you my age, but I'll give you a little bit other details. I'm a first-generation American. I'm of Haitian descent.

I was married for 20 years. I have a 19-year-old son who I adore, my namesake, two younger daughters, 16 and 14, who have come, funny enough, my daughters have really made me a better father as we get into this conversation shortly.

Professionally, I'm an entrepreneur. My world is entrepreneurship. I was an adjunct professor for a few years. I worked for a prominent, let's say, incubator, helping small businesses scale, changing the economy.

Then the thing that I'm probably most proud of is that I am a serial entrepreneur. I'm glad that our podcast get to collaborate on this one. I'm co-founder of Black Dad Unfiltered, which is a media agency looking to change the narrative of black men, in particular black fathers, because that's what I embody as a man of color.

I am also the co-owner of 4The6 Media, LLC, which is another media platform that's dedicated towards keeping the Haitian language, the Creole language, which is in the Haitian language is Creole, alive in second and third generation Haitian Americans because obviously some of the culture dilutes over time.

I am also the CEO - wear a lot of hats, right? - of Jubal Talents. Many people don't know Jubal is the father of all instruments. It's in the book of Genesis. This is a platform that's really focused on tackling this musician gig economy by creating a matchmaking service, like a job matchmaking service between talent seekers and those who have musical talent and anything that plays in that arena. Again, thank you for having me and thank you for, you know, allowing us to come together and collaborate.

S: Thank you. Yeah, this is, wow, that's a lot of hats.

CR: Yeah, yeah. And the biggest hat is being a father, right? Again, I know we had a script, but we're going to go off script because this is what we do on Black Dad Unfiltered, right? We have no filter. My biggest hat is obviously being a father.

And on a podcast like this, people will think that, well, what are you supposed to say? But for me, it's true. I left my career to be a stay-at-home dad, right? When I remember my son was at a daycare and he just came back injured and no one could tell me anything. And I said, I can't live like this.

And my career started in banking. So I said, okay, we're going to walk away. I have some skills. We'll figure this out. But I'm going to be here with my kids.

And then from there is how I got to entrepreneurship, because I'm still responsible to be able to help provide for my family. And from there, it just became coaching teams and always the balance, which swayed more towards my kids and me choosing career paths and options that allowed me to be fully present, fully engaged and live in the moment. So that's a little bit about my history.

When I saw my son, I said, no, I can't do this. It hurt too much to see him hurt and realize if I send you back, you're probably going to come back to me hurt again.

And the good news is, it's funny, I had both my parents. My parents owned where I lived because they did the American Dream. So our house was a community. Thanks to my mother, I had the support to say, hey, I'm going to do this.

S: How long ago was that? Like, how long were you working before you made this big decision?

CR: So I think it was early in my career, like maybe five years in, something to that effect. Because again, I was married and it became like any married couple coming from a marginalized community. I'm not going to say black, whatever, it's two family incomes. It's parents have to work to be able to build for the kids. That's just something, until you get to a point where you're able to have options.

So at the time, my ex-wife was pursuing her master's in, I believe, nursing. And so here I am in banking. And I think at that time, I was in middle management for a very large nonprofit. And you're going to school and we have, I think, a small kid. And I sat there and said, all right, you finish what you have to do. And I was arrogant. I have a dual MBA. And we had two different fields. I'm talented. Do this, I'll do this.

And then from there, it was always this journey of, okay, I'm no longer qualified to go back to work because I've tasted entrepreneurship. And so it just led me down this path of all these experiences. And again, I landed on my feet because I'm still in this world where I get to help other entrepreneurs and still pursue my own dreams.

S: So that's a huge decision to do that. And one of great convictions. Was there a moment, I guess, that time you picked up your son from the daycare, that was the moment?

CR: That was the moment. Up until then, it was just a struggle. But the way I grew up, you almost understand struggle's part of the journey.

It's part of the course, right? I didn't grow up seeing abundance. And I didn't grow up disparaged.

I had a great life full of love and joy, but I just didn't have some of the other material or accessories. So you just knew you worked hard and it's for the kids. But when I saw my son, I said, no, I can't do this.

It hurt too much to see him hurt and realize if I send you back, you're probably going to come back to me hurt again. And this is going to be a cycle. And the good news is, it's funny, I had both my parents.

My parents owned where I lived because they did the American Dream. And so our house was a community. So it was thanks to my mother.

I had the support that said, hey, I'm going to do this. And fast forward, my son is a freshman at Tulane on scholarship.

And I didn't realize having a gap on your resume was going to be so detrimental to me. And here I am leaving, having accomplished a few things, and it just became fairly difficult to plug myself back to where I thought I should be.

S: But I'm sure it was a journey with a lot of ups and downs. You mentioned that in reflection, I was arrogant, which means that you've probably been humbled, I guess, I'm sure, along the way.

CR: Yeah, that's a keen observation. You're going to get me emotional on this.

S: I should have given you my percentages. There's a decent chance. Yeah.

CR: So it was when now my son is in consistent school. I had put him in a private school preschool, because now your mind just starts becoming warped. You're not even worried about the kids. You're worried about the parents. And so can I put my kid in an environment where parents are thinking like me? So I just did whatever I had to do, whatever I had to do.

And then one day, he was big enough to go into kindergarten, first grade. And I felt like, okay, we have an established institution here. I said, let me go back.

And that's when you realize, holy shoot, momentum is a thing. Don't regret it. But it took a toll in terms of I went to a prominent high school here. And so all my peers are just moving up the ladder. And we're all equally talented, all equally smart. I love everything they were accomplishing. But it was the reminder that, dang, I could have been here.

And I tell my kids all the time, not to give dollars, but walking away from six figures when you're 24. Fast forward 20 some odd years later, without giving my age, you can only imagine where my... Right?

S: Right. You talk about there's compounding interest, and there's a compounding interest of your career.

CR: Yeah.

S: And how that plays out in dollars, which is a shame because you were accomplishing some pretty important work.

CR: Yeah.

S: Not like you weren't working. You were working probably harder.

CR: So I was trying to break the ceiling, right? Yeah. I was trying my hardest to get into investment banking. And I didn't know how to do it because I didn't have the backing, the supporting. My parents didn't speak English. So how do you do this? And so you're just doing, you're working your butt off to try. And once you lose the momentum, you lose the momentum.

I am in a special league - a special league of dads. So I thought: let me combine this creative energy with something meaningful in a format that I've always wanted to create in. And that’s how The Dad Bod came about.

But I want to pause here. Tell me a little bit about The Dad Bod, like what birthed The Dad Bod?

S: Sure. Sure. So thank you.

This is interesting because usually I've never been interviewed. It's a funny thing. I've had the privilege to interview 16, no, 17 dads so far. And it's been great. So this is my first time in a way fielding a question.

So The Dad Bod came about because really, I've been tinkering with stuff all the time, since I graduated from college. But I stuck very close to my career, corporate career — I have a lot to be grateful for in my career. And so I've always kept a very firm grasp on it. So anything I've tinkered on has been on the side with bits of time here and there. But the sort of desire to do something creative never went away. And so I've done different things.

And this idea, at its most basic thing is, is there something that I might be able to do for dads? This group of people that I belong to, that's my most important membership, one of the most important memberships in life. And so I thought about different things. I thought about, maybe I could do like, an exercise thing, something about health, healthy cooking, or something like that, just something that I could do on the side, that would be creative, that would be my own, that would be giving back in some way.

I did one recipe. And I'm like, I do not want to do this. Like, I love to cook, but I love to cook because to provide for my family, I'm not interested in putting recipes out there.

So I thought about more ideas. And then I realized one of the things also that I've always loved is podcasts. I've listened to podcasts since before the term was even invented. And I love especially these storytelling podcasts to really bring out the humanity of life. My favorite is This American Life, which is one of the first podcasts. If you had to go back to the Mount Rushmore of podcasts, it would definitely be on Mount Rushmore. I've always dreamed, maybe I could submit a story and be on that podcast. I'm like, hey, that's one cool idea.

And then I had another observation that I love these NBA player podcasts. I've always been a fan of the NBA. And once they started doing these player podcasts, I was like, this is amazing, because you had one player interviewing another.

And they could talk to each other in a way that was different than a media personality interviewing them. Okay, they would talk about, what did you think about that guy? Who's your favorite? Oh, you know, so and so from high school? And just the connection, they would have. This inside conversation, and I'm like, well, I'm not in the NBA. So I can't do an NBA player podcast. But I am in a special league - a special league of dads.

And so I'm like, okay, let me combine this creative idea, this creative energy that I have with something meaningful in a format in a medium that I've always wanted to create it.

And so that's how it came about. I'd say that that's what was its conception. And its sort of evolution has been really just in the course of the dads—they've told me what I wanted to talk about, as we've talked.

When we talk about these challenges or concerns or questions we have, we're hoping that some other dads out there — yes, regardless of color — can hear themselves in our conversation.

It’s not even an interview. It’s just us talking like a barbershop — exposing ourselves to some extent, understanding there's some stuff that comes with that, but saying, let's just have this conversation.

CR: You know, it's funny you say that, because people can't see us. We're not both black here, but we're both part of the same team, right? Because as I'm hearing you, and I tend to get emotional now as I get older. I don't know why.

But me and Carlos, we started this because we wanted to create a safe space for fathers to talk about the challenges we have as fathers. And when we talk about these challenges or concerns or questions we have, we're hoping that some other dads out there — yes, regardless of color — can hear themselves in our conversation.

And so it for us, it's not even an interview. It's just us always talking about like a barbershop, just talking about this, exposing ourselves to some extent understanding there's going to be, you know, some stuff that comes with that.

But saying, let's just have this conversation because the world, like going back to the NBA players, you see them on the court, but you don't see their struggles off the court, right? And they need people to talk about their struggles off the court, right? Because that's some things you hear when you hear their podcasts—if someone had come to me, if I had a male mentor, or the ones that are successful, it's like, I had this man intervene in my life, I needed to hear from another man.

Gilbert Arenas has his documentary on Netflix, I don't know if you saw it, Untold: The Story of Guards, and it was about the gun incident he had in Washington, when he was a Wizard. And it was two people in that situation. Gilbert is fine now, what happened to the other man?

And the other man, it talks about how he didn't have a father figure in his life. So we are — you know, it's almost therapeutic for us. But it creates this conversation on, okay, when is the right time to get married? How do I discipline kids in this new age? And so it somewhat celebrates, but also says, hey, this is your safe space, we're going to create this community, because to your point, we're on this team together. And no one's going to understand us better than each other. And if we have to get help, then we'll get help, but we do it together.

You need help, you need an outlet, you need to talk to somebody, you need to realize that you're not by yourself.

S: So much of what you just said resonates. And this recognition too that we as men are tend to be wired in a way, and also nurtured in a way where you go very insular. It's like, here you go.

Solve this problem. Yeah. Go figure it out.

And there's a lot of strength that comes from that. I by no means think that that's a bad thing.

But every strength on the other side, too much of it is a weakness. And when you're just doing this very important work of fatherhood, and your instinct to go insular kicks in, you need help, you need an outlet, you need to talk to somebody, you need to realize that you're not by yourself.

CR: So it's funny, because you said the instinct is almost wired. Yeah. And you don't even know you're doing it.

You don't even know it. You don't even know it. And that impacts marriages, impacts the way you raise your kids.

You keep saying the important work of being a father. And one of the questions I want to ask you as well is your aha moment, but you start realizing at some point, depending what made you want to have children, you wanted the joy, the bonding, the raising, and you didn't realize, wait a minute, this is work. This is another career, not to minimize it compared to a corporate job, but this takes leadership skills. It does. This takes personal development, like you were in a company.

S: Oh my gosh, yes.

CR: It takes a lot of work to elevate as your child elevates. So this conception of just being there, which probably would have worked in the 70s and 60s—go work, provide, be in the home. They see you, it doesn't work now.

S: No, it's not like that.

CR: So to your point, if anyone's listening, I think I want a father to walk away saying, wait a minute, this is important work.

S: That's right.

CR: And how am I equipping myself to do this important work?

My daughter, who’s 16 now, would just come to me, move my arm, lay down on me, and then put my arm back around her.

At that moment, it just made me feel like she’s saying, “You’re mine.” And this is where I want to be.

CR: So there's a moment. My son graduated high school last year. And his senior year was a weird year for us, right?

Now, again, I gave up my career for my son. I don't want to say it that way to say, hey, you owe me anything. And I've coached every team. I've attended every, you know, I was always there. Like when the school needed someone to speak on behalf to petition the city, I volunteered.

His senior year, I didn't know about his prom until maybe three days before. Because for me as a father, it's my only son. This is like, okay, I'm ready. I'm going to go all out for you so that you can enjoy this prom.

Fast forward without getting into details, he alienated us and told me and his mother, well, I didn't think you guys cared. Wow. And I said, what would give you that impression?mHow would we even know there's a prom? Like all the information feeds through you. Right.

And in my mind, I said, where is this coming from? Well, I felt all my actions. But then this is the conundrum that we have as parents. My sentence started with me saying when I felt all my actions, and this is no different than a marriage. How did you need to be loved? Not how did I feel I should love you.

And this is where the back and forth comes with fathers, right? Because there's no blueprint for this.

But I just realized we're about 40 minutes in, and I don't even know how many kids you have.

S: Right, yeah. Let's do the dad bond intro. Let's go.

I love this collaboration. I love this. Just to turn the mic, turn my question on myself.

My name is Shawn. I'm 43 years old. I've been married to my wife, Ella, for 15 years.

CR: Wow, congrats.

S: Thank you. Our daughter, Esme. She's nine years old. Our son, Ezra. He's six years old.

CR: Okay, we're going biblical. We're going biblical there.

S: Old Testament there. And for a career, I'm a FinTech executive. So come up through sort of the technology side of the business. And really what that means to me is that I'm in the privileged position to be able to support a lot of people in the company. That's really the purpose for me day to day. And being there is to try to support the people, help them be successful, and help the company be successful.

So and besides the career, the other hats I wear is this podcast. This has been a hat that I've been very, very blessed to wear. It's been such a gift for me.

So yeah, that's my bio.

I just wasn't me anymore. You’re saying “I love you” to everyone else… but since no one else can identify with your pain, you can’t accept their love. Even if they’re telling it to you.

CR: Do you find your interviews to be somewhat therapeutic to you?

S: For sure. Yeah, and definitely to the guy as well. Obviously, you get what you pay for. So they got this therapist, unfortunately. I apologize to them.

But all joking aside, it is very therapeutic. And for me, it’s a little bit unfair in the sense that the dad is the one who’s doing all the sharing. For me, it’s in the hours after, the days after where I’m going through the conversation, editing it, preparing it for being published. And it’s this exploration into my own fatherhood, my own sonship, my own manhood. So every single one. So it’s very therapeutic.

CR: I love what you said, because you broke it down, right? You took derivatives of it. Your sonship, your manhood… I mean, I'm not trying to get biblical, but it almost ties back to...right? And so you are three in one, right?

So did you always want to have children?

S: No, I don’t think I thought about it that much. I, you know, I honestly, I think growing up, I didn’t think a lot about what do I want. That’s one of the biggest things I’ve been really trying to grow in is to understand that — not in a selfish way, but just to be like, are you even having an honest conversation with yourself? And I think that it’s been a lot of my strength, I think, as a person is from my upbringing, having to just be in a position where I’m trying to be a good brother, be a good big brother, be a good son in a home when my parents split. And so that was the biggest thing for me. So at a young age, I was like, yeah, I kind of stopped thinking about… and you just own responsibility. I was just thinking about responsibility, what needs to get done.

CR: So I’m glad you brought that to the dads that are listening. So now we’re doing this in true Black Dad style, right? Where we go back and forth and I try to expand on things that I’m hearing, right?

Because I think as fathers, one of the… we have to almost go back to say at one moment, the responsibility lead me as opposed to vision, as opposed to, right?

Because, again, I’m an older brother. I’ve always wanted a big family. My parents would tell you from when I was little, I wanted five children, right? I always wanted to be… but I automatically in my head—I don’t know at what age—knew that I was responsible for something. And I’m curious because that starts driving us.

And do we at some point lose our boyhood? Like when do we lose that? Because just being honest with myself and being reflective… my sister—congrats to my sister, Dr. Cassie, now she just earned her PhD—she said, “I understand the conversations you have, but when do boys get to experience boy joy?”

Because it seems like from the minute they turn five, you start growing them to be men. When are they allowed to be boys?

When my son came out, I couldn't stop kissing him.

But I did realize at this moment, like, it’s not just about having a child anymore. I’m going to have to fight society to some extent.

CR: What's your aha moment as a dad?

S: Yeah, I've had a lot of them. So when my wife went into labor, I felt we were prepared. We hit all the milestones, do this and that. Pregnancy was very smooth and healthy. We were very blessed in that leg of the journey. Took the classes where they teach you how to put a diaper on and change a baby and stuff. It feels like so inadequate to be called preparation. Because, when it was time to...firstly, labor was labor; it was hard. And then when it was time to leave the hospital, I was almost in disbelief. Like, you're allowing me to take this child? I am not. I'm not ready.

And I remember just being so nervous and my stress level was so high. My face broke out. My body, I could tell my body was just clamping down. So that was definitely an aha or maybe an uh-oh moment. Because I felt not much of an aha. I didn't feel exactly like there was anything revelatory going on other than "good luck."

So we get home and I remember just it was hard. Those first few months were so hard. And you're just very humbled. And I'm like, where is the joy? I'm not feeling the joy at all right now. I'm just grinding.

CR: So our experiences are similar but somewhat not similar. Which is why I love the diversity of this conversation, right? But we're still glued to fatherhood.

My moment, I had a series of moments that... Because it's these milestones that change you, right?

So I was married, and just going to the hospital, the way they treated me was as if this wasn't my child. They would look to my then wife, is he allowed to stay in the room? And I'm sitting here like, what? Is this what this is going to be like? So my experience was slightly different.

And we did all the classes. We tried to go on a natural birth. We had the doulas. But I did step up. That's one of my crowning moments. Because when that birth was coming, I was ready. Because the way I was raised, I knew how to clean. I knew how to cook. I knew how to change diapers before I even had children.

And when my son came out, I couldn't stop kissing him. But I did realize at this moment, like, it's not just about having a child anymore. There's a lot more.

And that's when society became a factor to me. I'm going to have to fight society to some extent. Because I still have to earn the right to be this kid's father in everyone else's eyes, but his.

My daughter saved my life. Because no matter where I was, she would just come to me, lay down on me, and put my arm around her. And at that moment, it made me feel like she’s saying, “You’re mine.”

CR: But I would say my... because I have three children, two girls. One of my most memorable aha moments was at some point, I felt like I was depressed. Because, again, I made certain decisions for the sake of the family. And you're married, two young people. And I just wasn't me anymore. I'm a former athlete. I stopped going to the gym. I just didn't care as much. I was functional, because I would still get up and work. Because the way I was raised - broken leg, it doesn't matter. You're going to get up. You're going to work. Because there's something about being a man.

But my older daughter, who's 16 now, I would just be on the couch like a couch potato. Because you don't feel loved. That's the thing about being a dad sometimes. You're saying I love you to everyone else. But since no one else can identify with your pain, you can't accept their love. Even if they're telling it to you.

My daughter—and I tell her to this day, I always remind her—you saved Dad's life. Because no matter where I was, she would just come to me, move my arm, lay down on me, and then put my arm back around her without permission, right? DShe's like two, three years old doing this. But at that moment, it just made me feel like she's saying, "You're mine." And this is where I want to be.

And every day she would do it. If I'm laying down, she'd just walk up, lift up her arm, lay on me, and this was my reason. And it was the love. And I said, this is what love feels like.

And that's why I always say, when you have daughters, it changes the game. It changes the game. They love you a little bit different. And so this is when I started realizing, okay, this is the beauty of being a father. This type of love.

And then my son, I forgot what age, but he would always kiss me. At some age, it was just like, don't even hug him. But that's another conversation.

Am I doing this right? That’s kind of the common ground. One of the big things I’ve realized is every dad I talk to has this question in some form.

CR: Is there a moment for you, outside of your podcast, in just conversations with other dads where you're just like, oh, it's not just me?

S: Oh, yeah. So, I mean, what I see in a lot of my conversations with dads, whether they're dads I know well, or dads that are more casual acquaintances, if we have a meaningful moment in a conversation — because, life, you just don't always get to have those meaningful moments. And that's okay.

CR: But we need to carve out those moments. So I want to make sure we put an emphasis for our listeners, right? That as a dad, you have to carve out space for community and meaningful moments with people, but also other dads. So that you don't become insulated, like we mentioned earlier. But continue, sorry.

S: And that's actually one of the things I started realizing about The Dad Bod. And I say on all my shows now, the intro to my show is that: share these conversations, because these meaningful conversations are a great way to have a meaningful conversation of your own with someone that you care about. Because sometimes you need somebody to help start it. Yeah. I can't just say, how are you really doing to a good friend, but maybe you can say, hey, I listened to this thing. And this dad was talking about this and that. A conversation starter.

But to answer your question, what I realized in many moments with dads is that everybody is like, am I doing this right? And that's kind of the common ground. One of the places of common ground. Am I figuring this out right? Am I doing the right thing? Am I asking the right question? Like everybody's just in this moment of, I've got all this responsibility. And I'm just not sure if I'm doing the right thing. And I absolutely identify with that, like very universally.

To almost see that they were going through the same emotional struggles that I was going through as a father - it was beautiful to me. And I needed to see that, because it normalized that I’m not doing this completely wrong. This may just be part of the process.And chances are my father went through this process. My grandfather went through this process with my father.

CR: So again, I love the diversity because our experiences are somewhat similar, but also I see the differences. My moment was—I guess it's connected to doing right.

So again, I've coached all my son's teams and my son played three or four sports, right? And he was really good at two of them. So we were part of a lacrosse team. And so I was their strength and conditioning coach for a period of time.

And this is a diverse team because lacrosse is not predominantly a Black sport. So we have kids from everywhere, which is what made it so much fun. Because it was beautiful to me. And so we were with other fathers, right? And these are affluent fathers, let's call it what it is. And to almost see that they were going through the same emotional struggles that I was going through as a father.

There was this kid and I just loved the way he hustled. He wasn't the best athlete, but he would listen when I would tell him something and he would just hustle. And I looked at the dad and was like, I love your son. And he's like, you can have him. Jokingly, right.

But I was like, oh, I'm not alone in this. So you're white, I'm Black. Doesn't matter, right? These kids are still doing kid things. And these are boys we're raising.

And I had another guy and I think he may have been Filipino, I'm not sure. But the same thing, right? Loved his son, but just could get frustrated. Like, we don’t need to keep going back and forth on this.

And I don’t want to highlight what may sound negative, but I needed to see that. To almost normalize that I’m not, to your point, doing this completely wrong. This may just be part of the process. And chances are my father went through this process. My grandfather went through this process with my father. And we hope not to go through the process. But there is that process where the kid just has to become their own.

My mom was my superhero, but I had friends that I grew up with and somehow they were very maternal as mothers. And I started mimicking how they were raising their children with my children.

S: Absolutely. No. And just to your example, like I see that all the time and I feel very connected strangers in the sense that you see them struggling with their kid in public. And I'm like, okay, I've been there. I've been there. Say a prayer for that person right now, because I hope somebody is for me the next time it's happening for me.

CR: And you got to figure out this—this is what we talked about—the skills. How do I cope? How do I give grace? How do I give space? Because some of it is the kid’s doing intentional. Some of it is the kid is trying to figure stuff out.

And these are the things I learned as I got older and raising my son, particularly, right? Because he's the oldest.

And now I speak to whether — you just look back. Was it worth it? If it was, then no regrets. We move forward. If it wasn't worth it, we don't beat ourselves up. What could we do different?

And you become a teacher to some extent. But I will tell you, because you mentioned the, am I doing this right? And even though this is a dad conversation between two platforms that are really trying to impact the community, I don't want to neglect the women, the wives, the mothers, because I became a better father with the mothers in my community. Not my mom. My mom was my superhero, but I had friends that I grew up with and somehow they were very maternal as mothers. And I started mimicking how they were raising their children with my children. So I took on more of the role of the nurturer.

And so what's funny, there were mom groups. So I would get the crumbs, right, from the mom groups and they would shoot me messages. Hey, here's a program for your kid.

It was really these mom groups feeding me, having conversations with me, hearing my struggles. “Hey, approach it this way.” I had this one friend of mine—I want to shout her out—Brandis Manuel out in Chicago. My son would be on the ledge. I'd be like, “Get down from there before you get hurt.” And she'd be like, “Will he really get hurt?”

And just posing these questions. And I said, you know what, you're right.

All my children are in prominent schools. Coming from the community, it shouldn't be where they're at. It's because mothers would come to me and say, “Hey, here's a program that can help your kid prepare for this.” “Here's a program, they're giving a stipend.” So my son has gotten to experience a lot of things.

Then that also made me realize, wait a minute, as a dad, it's not just all fire and brimstone or do as I do. It really is, hey, am I a part of your life? Am I a voice that you want to hear? As much as I still have to hold this position, I still have to balance this out with some level of nurturing.

And that changed the game. It changed the game for me because I started figuring out how to balance being… I have to be an authority figure in my home. So at some point, we have to realize, when I finally say no, there is no going back to this. But I also have to give you a voice.

And now I have my youngest daughter who's 14, I have the best relationship. We laugh all the time. And I take a lot of joy in the fact that she can make me laugh and that she knows she can make me laugh.

And it almost builds her self-esteem—that this man, you know? So I've had a series of aha moments that made me realize, okay, it's not just now that they're born, I'm a father. This is a growing process.

S: No, definitely. I've had a similar—different path, same destination.

CR: That's the beauty of it though, right?

S: Absolutely. And for me, I definitely went into it—I had any kind of preconception, obviously, based on what I received and what I experienced meshed together with who knows what. And so for me, when I started out in fatherhood, I think I really tried to be the disciplinarian, be really good at that, set that tone, and if it needs to get loud, it's going to get loud. Basically, I worked with the same boundaries that I was raised under. This is how you make sure they know the way things roll and make it clear all the time.Like, oh, this seems like a good moment to remind you about the direction that gravity moves in.

And it would get explosive sometimes. And my daughter is one of those really, really good kids, really good. But sometimes, like any kid, she would dig in. And so my answer was, oh, I would dig in. There's no way you're going to dig in longer than me.

And I remember she wouldn't do this homework. She's a great student, too. She just wouldn't do it. She's in kindergarten. It's COVID. She wouldn't do it.

And I was like, you have to do this. You have to do this right now. And we got into that. It's escalating, escalating. And I'm yelling at her. She's crying and screaming.

And then my dad, who was visiting, he comes in. Doesn't say a word. Just picks her up in his arms and just walks out.

And I'm standing there by myself in the room. And I was like, oh, okay. This man who could make my loins shake with his voice when I was growing up, he was loud. And he was scary. He never hit me. But he got as close as you could just with the voice.

And I was doing to my daughter what he did to me. And it was just this beautiful irony and humbling irony of that's the man who came in and rescued my daughter from me. And that was a big moment for me. I needed a few of those moments for it to really break through. It wasn't like, and then I saw the light. And I became a perfectly sensitive, balanced father. Like, no, of course not. But it was one of those moments where I'm like, you need to think about this moment that just happened.

My father let me play with things. And I realized he wasn’t all that bad. A lot of things I can do now are because he gave me that freedom… even if I didn’t recognize it then.

CR: And I'm glad it happened at that age. Because if I reflect, we look at our kids as our kids. We don't look at them as evolving species or their own person yet.

And I don't know what's the age where we do look at them. But for me, it was I had to start looking at you as your own person. And that's where the balance comes in. I did the same thing. My father — I mirrored everything he did. Because as much as I did, I didn't mirror everything. I mirrored the things that I felt like kept me away from trouble. The things that he did that if I had listened, probably would have gotten me even further ahead.

He was not perfect. But I did know one thing—because he's the first of like 14 kids. He's the first boy of 14 kids. And we're a Caribbean family. So that's a very high position of responsibility. So from a very young age, he's been responsible for more than just my family—his siblings. And so my father was very clear. We don't cross him. Very clear.

My father was a yellow cab driver. That's my introduction to entrepreneurship. So he worked from 2 o'clock in the morning to about 4 o'clock in the afternoon for like 20-plus years. I think he just retired when the pandemic hit. So more than that, actually—35, 40 years. But every day at 5:30, the house had to go silent because he was going to sleep.

S: Oh, wow.

CR: Right. So we went silent. Yeah. It was just—there was no ifs, ands. So I saw that. This is how my house has to be. I give you all the leeway, but the minute I speak… And then you start realizing, wait a minute, it doesn't work. I'm not negotiating with you, but there's a different way to go.

That leads me to another story. My brother has his children. I love them. They're like my extended sons—nieces and nephews. And his wife, who's my best friend — shout you out, Cassie — you know, the kids would just cry a lot when they were little. Cry for everything.

In my culture, one of the common sayings - and anyone who identifies with my culture will tell you — “I'm going to give you something to cry about.” Right? So once we hear that, everyone in my culture knows what that means. You're going to stop crying or I'm going to make you cry. So that's how we grew up.

I'm like, they're always crying. I'm like, man, you got to stop coddling them. But now, these boys are so emotionally balanced. So respectful. Academically, miles ahead, right? My nephew just got into a high school that when he graduates the high school, he'll have his associate's degree and his high school degree.

The self-esteem and the confidence. Oh my gosh. But as I started seeing them, she influenced the way I parent. Again, the mothers influenced the way I parent, because I did not have enough healthy male modeling that I can mimic for dads. This is why these conversations you and I are having are important.

Because I was like, how do I — to your point — how do I get this right? Because I don't have any other men out here. Most of the men around here are saying, “I'm going to keep working and make sure that this kid can go to college.”

And I'm like, well, what about the relationship? I grew up this way, so I'm watching her finish that. “I grew up this way, they'll be fine.”

So I'm watching her and I'm watching the kids. And my kids are well-behaved at a young age. They don't cry because of the way I raised them. But then at some point, I just started seeing the pendulum shift. And I started saying, oh, what if I had let them cry, talked them through the crying—which is almost counter to the way I was raised—would they be more balanced?

I hope whoever listens heard themselves in this conversation.

CR: And so my son—I always say, he listens to everything I do—he paid the price. He knows this. Because then I started shifting. Okay, you need this space. And I would put words to it though. "You need this space for you to recoup."" Because then I was telling them what they were feeling. I was putting words to some of the things that they were feeling because they couldn't find the words. “Dad's going to step away. I'm going to come back. But I'm going to give you a space to do what you need to do for you.” Using language that they… And I was mimicking her. And then I just started seeing them shift and remain good kids. And I said, oh, this is…

S: She invested. She invested in that.

CR: And it's tough, though. And she's an amazing mother. My niece is so talented. And I can't speak glowingly enough. But again, the reason why I want to do this—the strongest male dad model was my co-host, Carlos. But we are 400 miles apart. And so I said, if I went through this, which is, I went through all the layers. I grew up in an urban community. I'm a first-generation American. English was not my first language. My parents did enough. I was able to go to one of the best high schools in the country, full scholarship to go to college. Then I went on to get my dual MBAs. But I lived all aspects of it, from the violence to the now what you may call affluent. And I'm now saying, who's better?

And Carlos grew up in the projects, then became a state trooper and a minister. So who better to speak to a diverse array of people to say, hey, listen, as dads, we got to come together. We got to have these conversations.

S: No, I have so many side streets that we could go from what we just talked about. One thing I just want to echo what you're saying and recognize the example that moms give. It's such a great way for us as dads to learn.

Number one, to start with, for me, appreciation. When I see my wife and when she's mothering, the way that she looks at our kids, there is a special look. That is this maternal love. And it's beautiful. It's beautiful. And it's, in a way, a distinctly maternal thing. But we as dads can do that, too. We can bring that.

CR: We have our own.

S: Yes, we have our own, too. And we can tap into that.

And I think that another thing, too, that I think we struggle with is that we want to recognize the things that our fathers did that were good. And we want to recognize that out of appreciation for where we've landed in adulthood, that they contributed to that. So our first instinct is to try to replicate the same playbook. But I think we have to see it as an evolution of it.

CR: I like what you said. It's not throw it away. Modernize it, right?

So what we're saying is, let's take some of the principles that are universal despite ethnic group, despite time of history. And let's apply it—the modernization of it—in a different way. There needs to be discipline.

How does that discipline show up? That's what we can do a little bit differently. I give credit to moms, but this is when I realized the power of a dad.

My dad was always a disciplinarian. Right? I always tell people, my uncle's the reason why I ended up playing college football, because we were close in age. And love you, Uncle Claude. In California, I would go to California. He would take me and my cousin, Edwin, and throw footballs with us. We would go watch him play soccer. And I didn't grow up that way. But he introduced this manly figure that wants to be with you. Not that I have to. He never said he was babysitting us. He's like, I'm coming to get you guys. I want to go bowling. Like the joy of being in our presence. So that changed. I love Uncle Claude. It changed my whole life.

But this is something my father did. And only my dad can do this. Because when I went to college, and I went to college up north, it was completely different than New York City. Growing up in New York City, I understand what people mean now. Because I grew up in it. I never understood what people say. If you can make it here, you can make it anywhere. And not until you go other places. Like, wait a minute. How's your store closed at 8 o'clock at night? It should be open until...

But I struggled. Because the school's predominantly white. And then not New York City white. Northern white. Which is a whole different cultural dynamic that I was not prepared for. Because I wasn't exposed to it. Nothing was wrong with it, per se. I just wasn't exposed to it. And it was completely different. And I couldn't feel accepted. And I struggled.

And I called my parents. I said, I want to come home. Like, any kid probably does. And my father said, all right, baby. And just him calling me baby.

S: How often did he do that?

CR: First time I heard it.

S: Really?

CR: Yeah. The first time I got to college is the first time the timbre of his voice changed. Meaning everything from him was always direct. And let me not say always. That's wrong. I didn't notice the soft moments. The hard moments permeated my mind. They never actually remained in my mind. Registered in my mind the soft moments. Because the hard moments were just so hard. It was direct. It was zero tolerance. All right.

And so when I got to college, a whole different voice. The calming voice. The I hear you voice. It's going to be okay. And it was just in a few words. And him saying that is what made me stay in college. Wow. Him saying, it's going to be okay, baby. Just try a little harder.

S: So it caught you by surprise too.

CR: Yeah.

S: Were you expecting him to tell you to stay there?

CR: I don't know what I was expecting. At that moment, I just wanted out. And I knew you can't leave and just show up at your doorsteps. Because it was like, hey, I'm hurting here. I'm hurting. And at that moment, like a son, I'm hurting. And it was him. It was solely my dad, the reason why I stayed in school. Because just a few calm words, because it was a man calming. You know what I mean? And I said, okay. Okay. And that was the start of me being empathetic to him.

Because I started realizing, wait a minute. What was your life like? Because I'm the product of teenage parents from another country. And yeah, it changed everything for me. Because the rest of my time in college, it was such a supportive voice. It was almost for him that the fact that I got here. He can almost now take off his armor and say, I can finally breathe. And be the dad that I probably always wanted to be for this man.

S: Can you imagine? He was probably just tense the whole time.

CR: He was. For 18 years, just trying to hold it together. Think about it. My father had me at 18. Came to this country. Didn't speak English. He worked in a sweatshop. And so my parents didn't live together. Like he had to work in another state, work in a sweatshop. Then come see us for one day. And we were staying in a bedroom. And these are things I remember vividly.

And it wasn't until after he spoke to me in such a soft way that I started looking and saying, how hard was your life? Because at 18, you fully commit. And I know it because you see it. It's evident. You fully committed in your mind. I'm going to do everything come hell or high water. To make sure this kid doesn't make my mistakes. And make sure he has a life. And I almost mimic that where it's like, I'm going to throw off my humanity. And become this police officer to make sure that you don't deviate.

And when I graduated high school, he finally said, okay, my son is good. He's good.

And so that was very helpful for me. And then I started reflecting and saying to myself, you did the best you could and I'm thankful now. And now he's a pride of joy where it was anger before. Because I'm like, I'm proud of this man. Because he didn't have a life anymore. My father worked 12 hours. He just retired. So I'm not giving my age, but it's over 40 years. He's been working 12 hours every day. And I think maybe within the last 10 years, he stopped working seven days and worked only six. So it's a huge thing.

But I want to fast forward because you asked me a very powerful question. I never actually spoke about this out loud. I just reflected on it. Because you asked me, is this the first time you heard it? And I said, I never heard it before.

And then I realized my father was very relaxed. He had music equipment. I could just play with it. The things that I would limit my kids from, you're going to mess this up. That was never his concern.

But I couldn't recognize it. Because I didn't understand what the game plan was. And nor would I have understood it in 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. But I realized he gave me a lot of latitude to try things. And I realized he wasn't all that bad. Because a lot of things that I can do now is because my father let me play with these things. Play with the records. And I see him with my children when they make mistakes. It's a mistake. Right? But he still has some of the tendencies of, hey, this is this. But yeah, it's very reflective.

But again, in true Black Dad fashion, I hope our listeners are understanding. We don't have answers. We just have conversations. And although this initially started off as an interview, we did interview each other to some extent. But I'm very proud that the Dad Bod and the Black Dad Unfiltered podcast was able to come together, cross these lines that say, listen, we're not actually different. We're both fathers. At the very top of this is we're human, and then we're fathers. And let's just talk. Let's just talk. Let's just talk. And then, again, I hope whoever listens heard themselves in this conversation. I hope they log onto your platform and recommend topics to talk about. And hopefully they visit Black Dad and say, hey, talk about this.

So you have any parting words for your audience?

S: No, I would just say this conversation is so meaningful for me. And I appreciate everything that you've shared. Because like you said, I hope our listeners get to hear some of themselves.Because sitting across from you, I definitely hear your story at the surface is so different from mine. Yet how is it that so many of these fault lines in life and the major sort of curvature of what's the reality underneath all of the surface, that is the same. We're tapping into the same groundwater as well. Even though at the surface, it's different trees that are blooming, same groundwater.

And so I don't think this is the last collaboration you'll see between the dad bod and Black Dad unfiltered.

CR: It can't be. It's only bigger, better from here, right? But like we do when we close off on Black Dad unfiltered. Let's go. Let's grow. Let's get it. Thank you, y'all.